The Noble Pagan Forums - Does this apply to you?

This came up recently in a discussion on another forum I frequent,

the original post (by a Christian) was asking if Paganism should be called a religion. The OP put forward that most Pagans he's spoken to have no real belief (dont worry he has admitted to no real knowledge later) but this quote was taken from a Chaos Magician.

I cant profess to speak for other people I call myself Pagan for ease closer to the truth would be Anglo Saxon Heathen in training Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts they'd like to share.

Pagan being an umbrella title for many beliefs I offered my own experiences and gave him the BBC website for a general outline.

Hmmm....well, my inital thought was regarding the "circle jerk" statement. That's a pretty crass thing to say. Meh.

For anybody to say it has "no real faith" is kind of presumptuous IMO. Paganism is such a broad term that it's impossible to paint with such a broad brush.

I used to get all offended by people like this. Not anymore. They speak out of ignorance, and it shows. I don't think any of us need to justify whether or not we have faith in ANYTHING....and why my faith or lack thereof would interest or have any bearing on anybody else is totally beyond me.

Like I said, the quote was just ignorant through and through. If that's what someone wants to believe (without any real knowledge of what they speak) then okay by me.

I'm kinda in da middle on that quote n statement.
And it's not because I am ignorant ( I am not omnscient by no means either though ).

I had thought ( back in my bright eyed and No08 dayz that pagany peeps were just well...better. Not smarter and faster or could stop speeding bullets with their eyes, better. But more disciplined, caring, wise and open minded.
After all when you get past the floofy books on how to turn your ex into a toad and disregard silly spells to cause impotence by inscribing the victims name on a pair of scissors to be buried, you come across all this text about aligning with Higher Powers that allow one access to be loving, accepting, thankful, harmonious and helpful for oneself and others.

In reality they are nothing like that. They are just people and for some reason Paganism seems to attract the "creme of the crop" for mean, unstable, addicted, ignorant, pompous, delusional, rude, smarmy people.

Of course you can find those ppl in Christianity and other religions too I am sure. However because Paganism is so broad a term for belief systems you won't meet people like in those other sects. You CAN find them AND in ABUNDANCE under the Pagan Umbrella:
"I'm really an alien stuck in this human body"
"In my past life I was a serial killer who was an alcoholic so I have come back to learn discipline (takes a toke)."
"I've been around for 400 lifetimes so I am really wise"
"My cat is my familiar and can suck out the energy in your aura"
"Omgdess! My tire threw a flat and so I just KNOW someone is hexing me!"

That also doesn't include the circle jerking ( ritual wise, ritual pissing contests and the like, as well as the sexual swap meets advertised as free love and the an it harm none and love is the law rationality for that, Mind you if you lead a poly lifestyle that is by all means your choice and I am not bashing on that.....just don't use Paganism as your rational or reason to do so).
Those are another type of people all together (though sometimes can be found in the mix of the quote types).

Then you get the people who are so into fantasy ( holy shit I rolled a +20 for my saving roll against that Volcano Dragon) that they have mistakenly mistaken paganism for some religious version of LARPing ( Live Action Role Play).
Those people are REAL fun lemme tell you what.

Is there a core belief that any of these folks follow or believe in? Yeah sure. And it harm none......Goddess is great..... the law of three....which then somehow gets morphed into free love....this makes me feel magical because I can wear a cloak with a REAL purpose and reason....I'm a druid now in real life....blah blah blah.

They tend to use the concept of Paganism as a window dressing, rationality, and all that for their own issues and creative outlets instead of actually practicing the discipline that comes with a spiritual path.

They get caught up in lingo, boasting about wisdom and power, dressing up for ritual and more or less making asses of themselves and others when they make magical threats or outrageous statements ( I will turn into an astral dragon and make your spirit miserable when you are asleep!).

Really it is no wonder that Pagans get bad PR. Then throw in their wah wah wah Christians are intolerant and mean to us. Christ. I seen them be mean to themselves. And they just as bad TO the Christians. So then the No08s come along and think in order to be truly pagany you have to know all these long rits and/or hate Christians to boot.

UGH!

So yeah I really do think that a LOT of the pagany types are just blowing half ass ignorant crap from various orifices which can make it EXTREMELY hard to lend any credit or validity to those who truly DO try and walk the spiritual path of their pagany choice by tradition or upbringing. It makes it double the hard for those who don't have the opportunity to become initiated into a tradition or have that upbringing. In fact it makes the true self starter feel THAT much more invalidated, lonely and confused ( particularly when said self starter is sincerely trying and gets shot down when s/he uses terms like "Solitary" or "Ecclectic" for both of those seem to translate to "Poser","Wannabe" and "Fraud".

I speak here not from an odiforous orifice. I speak from personal experience both in my own trials and errors and the many many many different people I have met as well as the situations I had been exposed to or were a part of.

Needless to say I got VERY burned out ( due to an overwhelming sense of sadness and dissapointment) in the pagan community.

I took about 2 years or so off because I became very sick of what I saw ( online and real life) and I was so sad and frustrated. In fact TNP was the last standing stone I had ( because I know these people and these are the pagans new and old who ARE sincere and DO have a real belief and core system that they practice and live by even when they stumble....it's not some fracked up game to them) so my heart was broken when CR took his own sabbatical and TNP went into a coma.
I became a pagan hater ( so ironic as I find myself under that umbrella and I do na hate myself). They irritated me more than even the most obnoxious door to door bible thumper.

I am so very happy that TNP is back. It is refreshing to see the old members back and all these new and wonderful people who I feel are SINCERE in what it MEANS to be pagan or at least look at it and be able to learn about it in a responsible and trustworthy environment.

Okay I am done.

I am sure this prolly ruffled a few feathers so feel free to start throwing rotten fruit at me ( preferably something that is soft). I'll shower it off gracefully later when the slinging is over.



C/S/

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WoW!! eeerrrrr WOW! In my short time traveling this road I can certainly say Ive met a couple of flakey people, I merely thought them harmless and was content they weren't evangelical types. I will admit I find RP speak a little hard to swallow but each to his/her own.

That was certainly an insightful if slightly disturbing view CS food for thought indeed, Thankyou for sharing.

I soz if I came off as disturbing.
It was na meant to be disturbing.
Again its all based on real life experiences.
Some of the flakey cakes ( as I call them and try dearly to steer clear of) out there are fairly inane and harmless.
Others cause and revel in drama and it's like the drama gets EXTRA awesome points because being a pagan means you can throw in the magic ingredients like hexes, paranoia guised under spells ans astral battles and the good old fashion my Goddess is better than your God b.s.
Others still take that to a new level that can be dangerous ( there are not a lot of them out there that I have met, however I have met them and they do exist).

As someone once told me "It takes all kinds" so I try to keep that in mind when I find myself getting into this pissy pagan frame of mind.
I just wish people would na use the Pagan Umbrella as a reason , way , and/or means to be delusional, mean, egotistical, smarmy (etcetcetc) asses.....

Any Spiritual Path is supposed to help you become a better person....not a bigger ego.



C/S/

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I think that people judge any religion or group of people by the negative contact they've had with said group.

When you meet the bunny people and their Goddess worship and 4000 year old wiseness you start to consider these people's sanity and if in fact they have some sort of real, whole hearted faith.

Please don't mistaken me when I say Goddess worship. I've met one too many bunny people who won't recognize the duality of Wicca/Paganism and give it all up to the Goddess making it more like some rebel against Christians with a feminist twist.

I could just as easily state that Christians have no real faith considering very few follow the word of their savior which I find to be exceptionally insulting. I could say that Buddhists have no real faith because they don't see Buddha as a 'God'.

To be so lazy to coin the majority as faithless is ignorance to me.

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I guess I read the OP quote differently, although I wholeheartedly agree with you.
I read it as a simple write off of ALL pagans, as opposed to just pointing out the silliness that does permeate around us.

I think there are the flakes ANYWHERE you look. We've got the drama-seeking-hubcap-size-pentacle-wearing tree huggers who break into cemeteries and impale themselves through the foot with a sword (that's an actual news story from a few months back, btw).

Then again, the Christians have Fred Phelps and the 700 club. No religious sect is free of those types. It's just human nature, IMHO.

Quoted by the DoubleDeb....

"We've got the drama-seeking-hubcap-size-pentacle-wearing tree huggers who break into cemeteries and impale themselves through the foot with a sword (that's an actual news story from a few months back, btw)."

Totally cracked me the hell up there lady. I so needed that!

*hugs*

C/S/

I think all the points made in this thread so far are good ones. Remember, that Neo-paganism is a minority religion pretty much worldwide, so I think that skews perception due to small sample size. Ultimately we cannot fully understand people merely by applying a label to them; to understand we must listen to the stories of individual people.

CS... I know this is a forward question and please forgive me for asking but... How old ARE you? That totally sounded like the kind of sage advice that my Grandmother and Great Grandmothers would have bestowed upon me. Grandma was always talking about how important it is to be true to ones self and FEEL your faith. Please don't take this the wrong way but reading your respond to this thread made me feel 150% better because of the way you reminded me of her. Thank you so much!

Back on track... I simply cannot abide people bashing my beliefs. The thought of someone looking down on my path as being insubstantial just makes my blood boil. I feel like looking them straight in the eye and saying, "Hey now, I don't criticize your faith or lack there-of, why do you feel the need to pass this judgment on me?" But I know that if I open my mouth it will end up getting me in trouble so I bite my tongue and try to put up with it for as long as I can or until I can find a different reason to not associate with them.

I tent to be passive aggressive that way. I don't know why but I have the hardest time standing up for myself even with being so adamant in my beliefs. Meh, color me crazy .

(On the 700 club... my Mom watches that before she leaves for work. Dad's still on medical leave for chemo so He's usually here while it's one... Found out the other morning Dad HATES the 700 club because it makes all Christians look like crazies . I love my Dad, he's so funny!)