The Noble Pagan Forums - McMaster vows to waste more taxpayer money with misguided legal battles

So any club that does not follow these conditions should be disallowed?

Why are you discriminating against clubs that don't follow these conditions?

Is it because you don't like them?

You misquote me; I did not say that it was "automatically" a sign of shame. Let's use another example. Many campuses (now) have GBLT student groups that use campus facilities and student funds to operate. Now I personally think this is a good thing, and I wish they had these when I went to school. These organizations exist like any affinity group; to reassure members that they are not alone; to meet and make friends, and to give back to the community.

If the school officials were to say, "because this group advocates a position that we disagree with, we will forbid them to meet on campus," can you imagine the outcry? And justifiably so; it would send a message loud and clear that there is something "wrong" or "unacceptable" about the focus of their group.

Likewise with the religious group; if school officials were to say, "because this group advocates Paganism, we forbid them to meet on campus," this sends the message that Paganism is somehow bad or unacceptable.

It is judgment on the part of school officials, plain and simple. Especially at an age where peer approval is a priority in most students lives, this judgment is easy to take personally.

How do you feel about celebrating holidays at schools? Like Christmas?
I remember when my school (this was elementary mind you, in the 1970s) celebrated the Xmas holiday...but there was no mention of religious figures, even though we might sing some carols that (looking back on it) had religious themes...but we didn't consider them religious, they were just songs most if not all people sang.

And then, of course, there is certain religious folks who claim Halloween is a religious holiday and should not be celebrated at schools either. But then, there is a secular way of celebrating, and a religious way of celebrating (same goes for Xmas above).

These restrictions are made as a practical matter, to insure fairness and compliance with the letter and spirit of the constitution.

Of course if the school really wants to be fair, they can eliminate all extra-curricular activities, but then good luck getting voters to approve levies after that.

You said to Macha: "So that children can learned they have to be ashamed of their beliefs? That they have to hide them?"

That sounds like an "automatic" absolutist statement right there.
You implied that students who were not allowed to participate in religious clubs on school grounds would get the impression that they had to hide their religion, that they should feel ashamed.

Lets keep it to religious clubs only please. Thats what the thread is about....religion and religious clubs on school premises.

But what if the school officials were to say, "because religion is a subject of much contention and sensitivity, leading to conflict in our community, we have decided not to allow religious clubs to meet on the premises."?

School officials don't like outcry, and because there is often contention on both sides, they would rather avoid that contention by not allowing religious clubs on school grounds period.

Are the school officials wrong in this regard? Why?

PS: I'm being a devil's advocate here, these are issues that have come up regarding religion clubs in schools....my impression is that people really need to look at other perspectives on why others find religious clubs in schools objectionable. Or consider the legal ramifications of allowing them, and the strife that has followed in it wake.

I think you have a point SD, but don't automatically assume just because I offer an opposing opinion, doesn't mean I am stridently against your position. I think it would be nice to have religious clubs in schools, but
religion is often a highly emotional issue when it enters into the public sector.

Let me rephrase that... if I were not allowed to participate in a religious club on school grounds merely because it is religious, then yes, I might get the impression that I ought to be ashamed of my religious conviction. Your Mileage may vary.
Yes, you're right, a highly contentious club advocating gay rights is in no way similar to a highly contentious club advocating religious rights.


But what if the school officials were to say, "because religion is a subject of much contention and sensitivity, leading to conflict in our community, we have decided that we will encourage people to mind their own business about shit that doesn't affect them."
Fortunately our current legal system seems to have already worked this issue out: (this is from The Federal Equal Access Act)

Fugger it here folks.

This whole thread is reminding me of why Halloween became an extinct species in the school districts around here.
(Which quite frankly has me stuffing a pillow in my mouth to protect my teeth enamel).
Too bad people have such a nasty thought process when others think outside someone elses personal belief system and /or monad.

I personally think that ALL religions should be broached in school. They sure as hell are na gonna go away and trying to nix them out of the system only takes away enriching and fun activities for people at school ( hey kids are na the only ones who like celebrating holidays...HOLY DAYS no matter what the friggle you dress them up as).

I don't LIKE IT NIX IT!
MINE ISN'T BEING SHOWN OR RESPECTED SO NIX IT!
THAT ONE IS WRONG SO NIX IT!
blah friggin blah friggin blah.
Welcome to the United States of Publicly Unacknowledged Religious Beliefs


Get the courses in the upper grades. Expand our childrens horizons and stop taking them away because someone else is na buddhist, christian, whatever. I get so sick of it.
Fat, black, skinny, albino, mentally challenged, physically challenged......pick something and some kid gonna get ostracized and ran over for it. Religious belief is in the same bag only we just NOW coming to an era of religious tolerance (and that only if individuals can let go of their own fragging insecurities and egos).
And this awareness is not coming into fruition easy at all. For some reason we are learning to go the OPPOSITE way than we have in the past when overcoming differences.....
Be nice to the tard but stone the pagan ( or whatever).
Remember when they would stone the tards? Now we are enlightened though and it is not nice.
Why?
INFORMATION by EDUCATION by EXPOSURE.

Just look at the seperation issues in the past and the way people treated others of difference.
Blacks seperated from whites.
Jews....that one is fun right?
What about kids who were physically handicapped....say from Polio.....

It took time but we ended up integrating instead of ostracizing.
I am praying that this religious rift follows the same pattern because if not....we will be taking EVERYTHING out of EVERYWHERE and it is really just ripping off EVERYONE.

Again.

This is generally speaking though so I have no quotes on political issues or amendments or other things.
It's just an opinion.
I think all study groups at a school would be great as an extra curricular activity. It gives more opportunity to learn and become aware. Sure there is always that chance of being picked on. Then again just showing up at school opens THAT door to begin with.

*walks away before explosion takes place*

C/S/

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but spider one fails to remember sheep are harder to herd when they r educated

Quoted for Truth.

ROFLMAO

I believe that Faith/Religion and Spirituality are personal, private choices that are to be made outside the public school area. Further more I believe it is the parents prerogative and responsibility to introduce Religion and Spiritualism to their children as they see fit. Once a child is of age to make a reasonable, sound and educated decision regarding their spiritual path, its up to them to maintain it, but again, outside the public school system.

Why am I so "Keep it away from PUBLIC schools"? Because I'm pro first amendment and dislike having any God preached, taught and otherwise influencing K-12 inside a neutral, public area. I view school like I view the work place-- I'm not asking you to be ashamed, hide or even not wear your symbols of faith. However I am asking you to keep it a private matter as it may make others uncomfortable.

We discussed in a thread Do you hafta hide? about hiding. In no way do I consider keeping religion out of schools hiding or being ashamed.

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