So I got to thinking recently.....I'm sure you have all discovered this is a dangerous pool for me to swim in......and I have this tendency to link... 2 Comments
So recently one of my old posts got ressurrected and tossed around :
http://noblepagan.com/wicca-86/sacred_space_your_altar-2776/
It was a... 7 Comments
Okay so here I am a practioner of Wicca for 17 years. A lot of you already know that though. This does NOT mean that I am the most Wiccany or Witchy... 9 Comments
After sharing The Spiritual Component of Autism (Pantheon) and reading the discussions that followed, I got to thinking about how medication effects... 4 Comments
I would like to address that age old thought inducing topic ... no I do not mean “Which came first ... the chicken or the egg?”, although it is fairly close in content. I am referring to “Nature V.S. Nurture”. If you are unfamiliar with this topic allow me to give you a quickie overview on it.
The topic involves the questioning of a person’s character and whether it is attributed to the environment one has been raised in, or if a person is predisposed towards certain behaviors based on genetics. For instance if little Robby’s father is an alcoholic (and his father’s father is also) then we can suppose that there is a gene flaw there; running in the direction of a bottle for stress relief correct?
Work with me on this okay.
So does this mean that Robby will become an alcoholic? Possibly. Now what if Robby was adopted out to a squeaky clean household who didn’t even have NyQuil in their house let alone a six-pack of say, Milwaukee’s Best? Would little Robby still end up as an alcoholic because of his pedigree make up (genetic wiring, i.e. Nature), or would he find no pleasure in alcohol whatsoever because of his upbringing (Nurture)? Or would he find the fine wine list and take to it, just not as smashingly destructive as his genes could dictate (Nurture overriding Nature)?
Hmm ... and so the debate rages on. Some say that there is little you can do about what you are genetically predisposed for. The most you can do is prepare for the worst and do your best with what you get. Others say that you can Nurture the crappy genetics right out of a person because a person is much more than the DNA hardwire programming that we are automatically built in with.
I used to believe the latter view. I used to believe that with love, patience and understanding any problems could be overcome. Dyslexia? Nothing a little TLC can’t help to smooth things over. You a little slow on math? Patience my friend. More TLC to cover that area. But what about things that are not so tangible like learning disabilities and physical issues. What about personality filters such as empathy, anger management, compassion, coping with stressors, emotional intake, the ability to communicate beyond words and more? Oh I was all about TLC and patience.
And now I am a believer in Nature. Nurture can only go so far, however it will NEVER completely override Nature, nor in some cases can it even last round one. I know it because I see it. I live with it every day. And every day I want to kick Nature in it’s teeth because I’ve put in about 15 years of Nurture.
Let me explain where I come from. I am talking about my son. Before we get to him let’s get some background on his pedigrees.
His father was never formally diagnosed with anything however in these days and times ADD may not be too far off track for one. It is hard to say because that man was raised in a drug and alcohol abusing home (both parents) with child and mommy beating as part of a daily routine so it would be no wonder why his father turned out to be angry and quick to blame others. From what I understood, his father was a very bright child however drug use probably dulled that. He also complained of dyslexia. If you find yourself asking “and why did you breed with such a specimen?” I can only say I was young and had no self esteem.
I have never been diagnosed with anything. My father was an alcoholic and drug addict however the home was not a physically abusive one. My mother became a single parent and this left me without a father. I did not suffer from anger management issues, however depressing would describe my childhood. I was a bright child with an above average I.Q.
So you have two specimens that are very smart. Both specimens carry the possibility of alcohol and drug abuse problems later. One was raised in violence and mistrust with the possibility of having neurological issues in the realm of ADD. The other was raised without violence and was taught to be passive. What could this mean for the child?
Well I am sure it could have meant a lot of things for my son, other than he is bound to be smart and possibly addiction prone? Well let’s look at Nurture for a moment in the womb.
While pregnant I had no salt, I cut out sugars and I pretty much did everything that every book and doctor says you should do when carrying a child. He was a textbook pregnancy with his only flaw being he was 12 days late. I think it’s just sadly funny that by age 9 he was officially diagnosed with ADHD/ODD. I tried everything under the Sun before I took him in.
Let’s look at his raising. His parents were together minimally between ages during his first year and in the next two that followed were his only that he had contact with his father. In fact during the first 3 years of his life he had only spent 1/3 his life in any proximity of his father. That’s right folks. That means this is really the nitty-gritty on Nature V.S. Nurture as I have been the Nurturer his entire life.
I used to think that would mean that he would somewhat take after me. That the lessons in compassion, respect, empathy, and all those other little lessons we instill in our children to be compassionate human beings would blossom in him. After all I took extra time out to explain and break down everything. I had examples coming out of my eyes and ears. I showed him. I lived it. I did everything those classes and books and professionals and tips from friends tell you to do. That should have made an impact right? I mean Nurture ...that is some pretty hardcore stuff ... not as hardcore as Nature though.
When he was diagnosed I bent over backwards trying to work with him. I still do. It was hard and it still is. Nurture, nurture, nurture. And yet ... the older he gets the more he does and says things IDENTICAL to the man he never really met and never got to know. Filtering, thought process and more. His anger coping skills. The way he seems to think the world should work. The "fact" that anything bad that happens to him is someone else’s fault. And it scares me.
These are views and complaints his father (to ridiculous levels even) would scream on about. I could never wrap my head around that kind of thinking and I did my damnedest to teach my son about being accountable for himself and to take responsibility for his actions. What consequences are and not only why but how they apply. This was my Nurture. And still Nature rears its genetically enhanced teeth and leers at me as my words and examples, actions and follow throughs just bounce off harmlessly of some of that hardwiring that makes up my son.
Will Nature win out? If so, is there enough of me in that Nature to make use of the Nurture I’ve given?
So tell me. Do you really think you can Nurture the Nature out of a person?
The most shocking surprise that emerged from the full sequence of the human genome earlier this year is that we are the proud owners of a paltry 30,000 genes -- barely twice the number of a fruit fly.
After a decade of hype surrounding the Human Genome Project, punctuated at regular intervals by gaudy headlines proclaiming the discovery of genes for killer diseases and complex traits, this unexpected result led some journalists to a stunning conclusion. The seesaw struggle between our genes -- nature -- and the environment -- nurture -- had swung sharply in favor of nurture. "We simply do not have enough genes for this idea of biological determinism to be right," asserted Craig Venter, president of Celera Genomics, one of the two teams that cracked the human genome last February. [For a conversation with Venter, see Meet the Decoders.]
Indeed, Venter has wasted little time in playing down the importance of the genes he has catalogued. He cites the example of colon cancer, which is often associated with a defective "colon cancer" gene. Even though some patients carry this mutated gene in every cell, the cancer only occurs in the colon because it is triggered by toxins secreted by bacteria in the gut. Cancer, argues Venter, is an environmental disease. Strong support for this viewpoint appeared last year in the New England Journal of Medicine. Researchers in Scandinavia studying 45,000 pairs of twins concluded that cancer is largely caused by environmental rather than inherited factors, a surprising conclusion after a decade of headlines touting the discovery of the "breast cancer gene," the "colon cancer gene," and many more.
Notwithstanding the valuable discovery of BRCA1, the "breast cancer gene," researchers insist the causes of cancer lie more with nurture than with nature.
But can the role of heredity really be dismissed so easily? In fact, the meager tally of human genes is not the affront to our species' self-esteem as it first appears. More genes will undoubtedly come to light over the next year or two as researchers stitch together the final pieces of the human genome. More importantly, human genes give rise to many related proteins, each potentially capable of performing a different function in our bodies. A conservative estimate is that 30,000 human genes produce ten times as many proteins in the human body, and figuring out what these proteins do will be a challenge for a century or more. "This is just halftime for genetics," says Eric Lander, a leading member of the public genome project, alluding to decades of work ahead to unravel the function of all the proteins in the body. [For a conversation with Lander, see Meet the Decoders.]
Our snips, ourselves
The key to ultimately defining the respective roles of genes and environment lies with 'snips' -- genespeak for the sites littered throughout our DNA that frequently vary between unrelated people. About three million differences exist in the genomes of any two unrelated people, but of these only about 10,000 or so are likely to have any functional consequences.
Fingering the flaws in their patients' genetic code will enable doctors of the near future to better prepare those individuals with high risk for certain diseases.
Scientists have already linked some of these specific DNA variations with increased risk of common diseases and conditions, including cancer, asthma, diabetes, hypertension, and Alzheimer's. Other snips affect the way people react toward certain drugs. Everyone carries between five and 50 genetic glitches that might predispose that person to a serious physical or mental illness. Identifying these flaws will enable doctors to predict individual disease risks, recommend suitable lifestyle regimens, and prescribe the safest and most effective drugs.
But divining DNA variations to uncover health risks will increasingly threaten our ability to land and hold jobs, secure insurance, and keep our personal genetic profiles private. "We're all ultimately unemployable and uninsurable," warns New York Representative Louise Slaughter, co-author of a new genetic privacy bill in Congress, "even the president of a health insurance company!" Without laws prohibiting genetic discrimination, she says, society may soon begin penalizing people with 'bad' genes. Even though 22 states have passed genetic privacy laws, Slaughter believes the confidentiality of your genetic code should not depend on your zip code. Francis Collins, director of the public genome project, says "We don't get to pick our genes, so our genes shouldn't be used against us." [For a conversation with Collins, see Meet the Decoders.]
Ever since the early days of genome sequencing, scientists have searched for elusive genetic clues to human behavior.
Becoming us
While the next few years will undoubtedly see major progress in rooting out genetic factors that influence our likelihood of contracting common diseases, what about the role that genes play in shaping human behavior and personality? Despite the media hype following recent claims for the discovery of genes controlling addiction, shyness, thrill seeking, and most controversially, sexual orientation, in reality these genes have provided little more than tantalizing clues to these traits. No one has identified (or even claimed to have identified) a "gay gene," and the first few genes associated with other personality traits appear to have only a minor effect. However, with the full genome sequence now accessible over the Internet, scientists hope to pin down many more genes that code for various aspects of human behavior.
Yet is it realistic to believe that single genes can have a major impact on behavior? Much attention is currently focused on the genes that code for proteins involved in the transmission of electrical signals in the brain. If drugs such as the antidepressant Prozac work by altering the activity of neurotransmitters (brain chemicals that convey messages between nerve cells), it is plausible that inherited variations in the proteins that produce those chemicals could exert a dramatic effect on an individual's mood and temperament. But even the most diehard geneticists acknowledge that the environment plays a major role in shaping our behavior, temperament, and intelligence.
With so much attention on explaining behavior in terms either of nature or nurture, scientists at the University of California, San Francisco recently described a fascinating example of how heredity and environment can interact. Perfect pitch is the ability to recognize the absolute pitch of a musical tone without any reference note. People with perfect pitch often have relatives with the same gift, and recent studies show that perfect pitch is a highly inherited trait, quite possibly the result of a single gene.
But the studies also demonstrate a requirement for early musical training (before age six) in order to manifest perfect pitch. Time will tell whether there is a "perfect pitch" gene, but it seems reasonable to think that many personality and behavioral traits will not be exclusively the province of nature or nurture, but rather an inextricable combination of both.
Highly sophisticated technology, like this gene-sequencing machine at Celera Genomics, is helping to spur advances in molecular medicine.
Gene genies
Regardless of how many genes are ultimately linked to disease risk and human behavior, one thing is certain: The technology to detect and possibly select genes for future generations is rapidly improving.
In the near future, DNA chips will exist that can detect thousands of the most significant variations in our DNA. A decade or two from now, parents of newborn babies may leave the hospital with a full genome analysis of their offspring that reveals hundreds of disease-related risk factors and susceptibilities. And doctors will be able to screen for more and more traits using in vitro fertilization techniques such as preimplantation genetic diagnosis (PGD). Doctors demonstrated the power of PGD last year when the Jack and Lisa Nash family of Englewood, Colorado selected an embryo that not only lacked the gene for a fatal genetic disease, Fanconi anemia, but also provided a bone marrow match for their dying daughter.
Thus, while Venter is undoubtedly right when he proclaims that "humans are not hardwired," increasingly we will be able to fiddle with our genetic wiring such that, in the complex balance achieved by nature and nurture, nature gets a little boost.
Dr. Kevin Davies
Dr. Kevin Davies is the editor in chief of Cell Press and the author of Cracking the Genome: Inside the Race to Unlock Human DNA (Free Press, 2001). A graduate of Oxford University, he holds a doctorate in genetics from the University of London.
So I placed this article because the problem with such an argument is in fact there are many things that sway such things.
What makes Johhny a serial killer and not a doctor? Sometimes there are instances when it can be indeed traced to nurture or lack therein of, but there are many cases where neither would scientifically lead to Johhny eating his neighbors, and that is when you look at the differentials that exist in minute dna coding that often may be the culprit.
The one thing about severely violent behaviors in the extreme - ie Jef Dahmer etc...is they lack what is termed a Social Conscious. Is that nature or nuture? They cannot effectively prove either. Because if and when they can isolate that, then there would be a more efficient way to treat such behaviors before you see Johhny on the news with livers in his fridge.
First I know all about Nature over Nurture and there is an on going debate which is more effective-- which I think frankly...both...depending on the gene's of the individual in question.
Secondly.... I like fruit....but I can't fly...
Thirdly, and it may sound horrible and elitist but...I will take into consideration whom I breed with. I want to know their history, family history, strong assurances of whatever illness or ailments my show up through out the family line... Why? To ensure my offspring has the best chance of a HEALTHY survival with minimal risk/chance to...you name it.
__________________
Our beliefs define the limits of our allowed experience
Macha - While that sounds good in theory, the fact is when love and the shooting hormones striketh - sometimes it loses its significance. But its a good goal to shoot for.
Macha - While that sounds good in theory, the fact is when love and the shooting hormones striketh - sometimes it loses its significance. But its a good goal to shoot for.
I'm hopelessly in love with Gerard Butler. He is flawless
I know that there are probably at least a hundred various reasons and variables that can sway a person to turn out one way or the other.
I was writing from a mindblown viewpoint (mine ).
Like his father used to slap his sides and say "Look at my wings!" what wings? Those are ribs. I don't care how many pounds you just weight lifted.....those are still ribs. Or he would lift weights and show off his arms like something actually improved.
My son wasn't even born to see that.
And yet my son ( who is thin built also and that would be mine and his father's genetics there) wanted to lift weights at one point so we got him 5 lb. dumbbells. And he did the SAME DAMN arm thing.
Or the way he laughs when he finds something turribly funny. It's not mine and not his. It's EXACTLY like his father's.
Those can be annoying at best. It's the behaviour. The thinking. That is what floors me. It's almost like leaving that man ( for a variety of good reasons such as physical abuse) didna make a dent at all for the future plan of who my son could turn out to be.
He says sentences word for word and tone for tone that he was never exposed to. Has ideas of they way the world works that were not shown to him. The list is long and the mirror like quality of who my son is and who his bio father is, is almost tragic really ( his father is a real piece of work........).
Like the idea that he can have a bad day and then blow up on everything around him until he feels better. And then can't understand why everyone else is in a foul mood. It makes me shudder for his future girlfriend if it does not change (and I have tried and I still do). He ever ends up laying hands on a girl I will end up in jail for tanning my son's hide half an ant's ass hair from a pine box bed.
It's things like that , that make me go "was I just an incubator? Was he hard wired to be like this with no alternatives? Is there something I missed? Is there enough of me in there to begin with to let whatever I have been trying to plant in him to take root?"
I don't want a lil me ( heavens no to that!). I just want him to be okay and the more he takes after his bio father the more I worry that he won't be.
I'm still Nurturing him the best I can. Now I am just praying that Nature is not a wholly rabid animal inside my son. Lol!
The simple truth sans science and nuture and nature and dna juggling is just this.....
We two humans who enter into the proverbial womb kitchen add ingredients, and as it culminates into full blown growth/rising we do what we can to influence which spice or which mix works and which might grow faded with the creation.
We keep it warm, fed, happy to a degree offer structure in life and breath. Lessons when we can , admonishments when we cannot and in the end what is pitched out into the adult world may beat all of that and become something.....individual in spite of you or me or paprika
__________________ .. I know things that you don't... I have done things that you won't....Nothing like a trail of blood to find your way back home....
The reasoning is experience LOL. The biological sperm donor [ second half of my cooking team many years ago ] Turned out to be an addictive persona and violent in the extreme [ hence an ex long long time ] Violent to the point of requiring the judicial system to place him away for a decade.
Now both my sons share some physical characteristics, Both have hard lines when it comes to violent people, One even spent a year dealing with a dependency issue.
But they are adults now...one working as a mechanic the other in a tech field. Both are responsible , odd occasionally but what they became as adults had only the lightest shading of the mix we were. Somehow, life happens. And no matter how good or bad we do this thing called parenthood.. they still damn them LOL become individuals . And perhaps that is just the way its supposed to be. Sure science can juggle all the genetics they want....me I bank on the divine and life. It teaches things that even as much as we love them - we cannot/
__________________ .. I know things that you don't... I have done things that you won't....Nothing like a trail of blood to find your way back home....
Well.. 
).
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