So I got to thinking recently.....I'm sure you have all discovered this is a dangerous pool for me to swim in......and I have this tendency to link... 2 Comments
So recently one of my old posts got ressurrected and tossed around :
http://noblepagan.com/wicca-86/sacred_space_your_altar-2776/
It was a... 7 Comments
Okay so here I am a practioner of Wicca for 17 years. A lot of you already know that though. This does NOT mean that I am the most Wiccany or Witchy... 9 Comments
After sharing The Spiritual Component of Autism (Pantheon) and reading the discussions that followed, I got to thinking about how medication effects... 4 Comments
I would like to address that age old thought inducing topic ... no I do not mean “Which came first ... the chicken or the egg?”, although it is fairly close in content. I am referring to “Nature V.S. Nurture”. If you are unfamiliar with this topic allow me to give you a quickie overview on it.
The topic involves the questioning of a person’s character and whether it is attributed to the environment one has been raised in, or if a person is predisposed towards certain behaviors based on genetics. For instance if little Robby’s father is an alcoholic (and his father’s father is also) then we can suppose that there is a gene flaw there; running in the direction of a bottle for stress relief correct?
Work with me on this okay.
So does this mean that Robby will become an alcoholic? Possibly. Now what if Robby was adopted out to a squeaky clean household who didn’t even have NyQuil in their house let alone a six-pack of say, Milwaukee’s Best? Would little Robby still end up as an alcoholic because of his pedigree make up (genetic wiring, i.e. Nature), or would he find no pleasure in alcohol whatsoever because of his upbringing (Nurture)? Or would he find the fine wine list and take to it, just not as smashingly destructive as his genes could dictate (Nurture overriding Nature)?
Hmm ... and so the debate rages on. Some say that there is little you can do about what you are genetically predisposed for. The most you can do is prepare for the worst and do your best with what you get. Others say that you can Nurture the crappy genetics right out of a person because a person is much more than the DNA hardwire programming that we are automatically built in with.
I used to believe the latter view. I used to believe that with love, patience and understanding any problems could be overcome. Dyslexia? Nothing a little TLC can’t help to smooth things over. You a little slow on math? Patience my friend. More TLC to cover that area. But what about things that are not so tangible like learning disabilities and physical issues. What about personality filters such as empathy, anger management, compassion, coping with stressors, emotional intake, the ability to communicate beyond words and more? Oh I was all about TLC and patience.
And now I am a believer in Nature. Nurture can only go so far, however it will NEVER completely override Nature, nor in some cases can it even last round one. I know it because I see it. I live with it every day. And every day I want to kick Nature in it’s teeth because I’ve put in about 15 years of Nurture.
Let me explain where I come from. I am talking about my son. Before we get to him let’s get some background on his pedigrees.
His father was never formally diagnosed with anything however in these days and times ADD may not be too far off track for one. It is hard to say because that man was raised in a drug and alcohol abusing home (both parents) with child and mommy beating as part of a daily routine so it would be no wonder why his father turned out to be angry and quick to blame others. From what I understood, his father was a very bright child however drug use probably dulled that. He also complained of dyslexia. If you find yourself asking “and why did you breed with such a specimen?” I can only say I was young and had no self esteem.
I have never been diagnosed with anything. My father was an alcoholic and drug addict however the home was not a physically abusive one. My mother became a single parent and this left me without a father. I did not suffer from anger management issues, however depressing would describe my childhood. I was a bright child with an above average I.Q.
So you have two specimens that are very smart. Both specimens carry the possibility of alcohol and drug abuse problems later. One was raised in violence and mistrust with the possibility of having neurological issues in the realm of ADD. The other was raised without violence and was taught to be passive. What could this mean for the child?
Well I am sure it could have meant a lot of things for my son, other than he is bound to be smart and possibly addiction prone? Well let’s look at Nurture for a moment in the womb.
While pregnant I had no salt, I cut out sugars and I pretty much did everything that every book and doctor says you should do when carrying a child. He was a textbook pregnancy with his only flaw being he was 12 days late. I think it’s just sadly funny that by age 9 he was officially diagnosed with ADHD/ODD. I tried everything under the Sun before I took him in.
Let’s look at his raising. His parents were together minimally between ages during his first year and in the next two that followed were his only that he had contact with his father. In fact during the first 3 years of his life he had only spent 1/3 his life in any proximity of his father. That’s right folks. That means this is really the nitty-gritty on Nature V.S. Nurture as I have been the Nurturer his entire life.
I used to think that would mean that he would somewhat take after me. That the lessons in compassion, respect, empathy, and all those other little lessons we instill in our children to be compassionate human beings would blossom in him. After all I took extra time out to explain and break down everything. I had examples coming out of my eyes and ears. I showed him. I lived it. I did everything those classes and books and professionals and tips from friends tell you to do. That should have made an impact right? I mean Nurture ...that is some pretty hardcore stuff ... not as hardcore as Nature though.
When he was diagnosed I bent over backwards trying to work with him. I still do. It was hard and it still is. Nurture, nurture, nurture. And yet ... the older he gets the more he does and says things IDENTICAL to the man he never really met and never got to know. Filtering, thought process and more. His anger coping skills. The way he seems to think the world should work. The "fact" that anything bad that happens to him is someone else’s fault. And it scares me.
These are views and complaints his father (to ridiculous levels even) would scream on about. I could never wrap my head around that kind of thinking and I did my damnedest to teach my son about being accountable for himself and to take responsibility for his actions. What consequences are and not only why but how they apply. This was my Nurture. And still Nature rears its genetically enhanced teeth and leers at me as my words and examples, actions and follow throughs just bounce off harmlessly of some of that hardwiring that makes up my son.
Will Nature win out? If so, is there enough of me in that Nature to make use of the Nurture I’ve given?
So tell me. Do you really think you can Nurture the Nature out of a person?
Hi,
I have to vote both. Nature makes a strong tendency towards many things. Like a weak lnk in a chain. What you experience strengthens or breaks the link. He may have been worse off with another environment. At least he got a good example.
I did not grow up with my Dad either.They divorced when I was a toddler. He moved across country not long after. I got to know him as a person when I was 29. I look like my Mom but think more like him and have many common interests. That my Mom is Not interested in.. Genetics is a big part of it.
Its common Psychology 150-- 50% nature, 50% nurture. This is the result of your efforts in the sexual kitchen.
My father died when I was too young...but I was gifted with another chance at having one a few years later. Try to follow me because my thoughts my be jumbled.
1. I look NOTHING like my mother. Not even a tiny bit. We share one thing in common-- we're both blind as a bat. No, really. We're legally blind. If my lenses were glass my nose would break from the weight, I swear it!
2. I look EVERYTHING like my father in the face but have my Maga (his mother) sister (his aunt) body shape. If the women weren't dead she would be by my hand for such a bastard shape.
3. I have a half sister. We have the same father. We look so much alike at the exact same ages of our lives (so compare when she was 5 and I was 5, or 16 and 16) that you had to start writing who was who on the back of the picture. We're 8 years apart in age.
4. Said sister and I were not raised together at all. Not once. But according to the family we have identical personalities (in some area's) and we act just alike (most of the time).
5. I have habits and personality traits of my biological father that I couldn't have possibly 'learned' while he was alive. So does my sister. When we go back to our hometown, there is not a SINGLE person (assuming they've lived there since we were born and even before that) that doesn't know who are father is-- and its only by looks.
6. My Aunt thought that I'd turn out to be ugly because I looked so much like my father.
7. People think I look my mother because I have a lot of my mothers personality traits and similar ways of thinking. Thats ALL that it is. It didn't help though when my hair was short and hers was short and we were both red heads.
8. My father (current, living one) is not biologically tied to me but I have a lot of his personality as well-- all taught.
9. Both of my parents were smart though my father choose never to engage it really...he loved life too much to be stuck in a cooperate office or be doing something that required lots of effort and time. I'm smart. Really smart. Smart is not all its cracked up to be.
10. I have and was given just as much from the gene pool as I have through my environment and the nurturing bit.
__________________
Our beliefs define the limits of our allowed experience
And at some point aside from nature and nurture you also have to figure in the whole social and economical influences as we mature.
There are many people nurture or nature who would never be the kind of person they may become due to downsizing or lack of ability to secure their own families futures.
Which is why no matter what the 50 50 is- life plays a huge roll in influencing. Whether they were traits we all had that were not active or traits adapted to survive the world.
As good or bad as we have the dna and the nurture...I think that life makes it a crap shoot at times to what actually makes us.
__________________ .. I know things that you don't... I have done things that you won't....Nothing like a trail of blood to find your way back home....
Hmmmm, yeah, I'm gonna raise this one from the dead. . . .
By all accounts, I should be a child abusing, drug addicted, prostitute. Well, more like a slut because my mother simply spread her legs and never charged. My father was raised on a farm, used his psychic talent of the power of suggestion to seduce women and sell waterbeds, dove head first into Christianity because it afforded a control over people you can't find anywhere else, and basically lived his life like an ego-centric prick who demanded obedience and acquiescence from all in his presence. When I found him after 16 years, I was stunned by the way he treated his wife of 20 years. If he was talking and she chimed in, he would say, "shut up rozi!" then continue with his sentence; even if front of perfect strangers. He has a moderate intellect and has worked to develop his ability to control others his entire life.
My mother was also raised in a small town in Eastern WA where her father was the Sheriff. Her mother was a strong willed, farm raised Irish woman from a matriarchal family where the woman was the back bone of the family. Being raised with such a strong emphasis on feminine independence and rulership, why did she choose my father? She had a 4.0 every year she attended school, including her Masters of Nurse Midwifery degree, which is a medical degree with crazy hard math. My mother had me when she was in school for her Bachelors, and three kids when she went for her Masters. I have no idea what her IQ is, but it has got to be way up there to keep a 4.0 in a medical field with all the distractions in her life at that time.
Both my parents have extensive drug and alcohol abuse issues. My mother once assisted in the OR during a C-section under the influence of alcohol. I often visited my father in the Puyallup jail where he was incarcerated for drug trafficking.
So now lets get to me:
My father belittled my mother daily, my mother beat me daily from a very early age. I still have shoulder issues from her jerking me around and tearing the muscles surrounding my right scapula. When my mother left my father, she married a pedophile. He also had all the abusive qualities my father exhibited in spades.
Looking at the Nature, I should be of above average intelligence, strong willed and capable of either being totally controlled by others, or in total control of anyone I meet. Not to mention the drug addictions and alcoholism. Both my parents also exhibit a high propensity for self delusion. A HIGH propensity.
When my step father was sentenced to 10 years of prison for innapropriate sexual conduct with a minor, my mother visited him every weekend. She insisted that he was simply misunderstood and 'slam dunked' by the 'good 'ol boy' system in the county he was tried in. She raged against Social Services saying the "Socialist Services" stole her children. 5 years after he was packed off to prison, my mother made arrangements to have him move back in with us when he was parolled. Giving no warning to me. Whenever we talked about her a**hole husband and what he was in prison for, she said that I simply misunderstood what happened.
Enough details, simply put, my mother is the Queen of Denial and it ain't no river in Egypt! My father is exactly the same. My younger sister, raised in the same family, exhibits the same lack of ability to perceive reality. Her husband beats her, calls her lazy, expects her to cook, clean, deal with his cheating and drug addiction and never question him, ever. My sister never knew our father, she was 5 when my mom bailed on him, but she married his carbon copy!
I question authority at every turn, I refuse to accept lies for truth, I never turn my back on anyone for any reason, I strive to allow everyone in my life autonomy and independence while supporting them emotionally. After 18 years of intense therapy and self-help, I have emerged a different person than anyone could have guessed.
Why? What makes me different?
I have worked long and hard to eradicate the character flaws that marked both my parents in the face of complete denial of all truth. I have succesfully beaten drug addiction and alcoholism, I have entered and defiantly left two horribly abusive relationships and am now married to a wonderful man. I have never once in the last 18 years stopped working on myself. I have never once given up on the hope of a better life, even with strong evidence to the contrary.
What makes me different?
It sure as hell was not a Nurturing or loving environment that fostered my hope for a better tomorrow, nor was is the Nature of denial and self depracation. My guess is the Lord and Lady. I think people conveniently leave out the presence of dieties when it comes to human behavior because it begs the question of responsibility. Why? becomes the chant and noone focuses anymore on the How? I did not become a fully functioning sane member of society because the Goddess chose to put me through hell, but because I CHOSE to ASK for help. That's what makes me different, that is what breaks the chains of Nature and Nurture. Choices. We all make them, we all suffer the consequences of other's choices, and we all conveniently deny that we ever had one. I have the capacity to be a complete and total waste of human flesh, just like my parents. My daughter has the ability to be a needy, controlling, defiant little person, just like her father. But she and I have made CHOICES that make us different. Some people exercise that right, others do not.
So maybe the real question is: Is it Nature or Nurture that governs our choices?
LOL SanD.
I like that.
And yes it is definately in the mix there if someone chooses the free will card
I've come to a point here that I've done what I can ( no I have na given up by no means). He's 15 here soon and I know it i a rocky road at that age.
I just want the best road for him.
I've done what I can and will continue doing so as he is my son and I love him so very much ( that is why I worry ).
He's gonna do what he is gonna do. It's coming to the point where he has very little time left to really reconize and realize that he is and will be responsible for his actions, reactions, rewards and consequences.
I suppose this whole thing started off because I see the potential he has and I have tried to Nurture him the best way I can.....the Nature worries me in that he won't take what he has been given to make better of himself than either of his parents.
In the end it is Free Will. I just pray that his leads him along a different path than his biological father.
I totally understand Spider, my daughter gives me similar hell. :~X
I neglected to mention at the end of my . . . rant, what I believe is truly responsible for our outcomes. I believes our experiences from past lives makes a huge difference in the lives we live this time around. As hokey as it may sound, there was no way in hell I could have known that better things were out there, unless I had seen, heard or experienced them at some point in my spirit's existence. In the end, the God and Goddess don't have grandchildren, only children who are their primary focus. Somewhere, somehow, in some way, I knew what to shoot for. Your son has his path, I know how much it breaks a mother's heart to see their child so far off what we see as their course, but they are on the path they are meant to be on. He has you, right? That is totally the Goddess at work in a young man's life. Love him, tutor him, and let the rest go. I had to get smacked around a bit to learn my lessons, you did too. He's gonna be ok. If not this time around, then he will take the lessons you and life have taught him and get it right next time.
(((((((Spider))))))))
I know you will be there for me when I lose it over some other dumb stunt my daughter 'chooses' to pull. Thank you in advance. Your son is lucky to have a mom as devoted to raising their children in the best way possible as you are. Much love from the baby momma.
Re: Nature V.S. Nurture 
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